[Fast-Neutrons] Fast-Neutrons Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1

Alan Hewat alan.hewat at neutronoptics.com
Mon Dec 16 20:53:50 CET 2019


I'm happy to hear that Michael's hot neutron source doesn't produce much
gamma. Still it would be good if when you took a fast neutron image you
could also take a similar image with an x-ray scintillator or image plate.
And if you think that gamma produced by fast neutrons scattered from a
hydrogenous sample might be a problem, you could easily test that with an
image.

Again, very impressed with your thermal neutron images. Great stuff !

Cheers, Alan
______________________________________________________
   Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE
                               from my telephone
<Alan.Hewat at NeutronOptics.com> +33.476.98.41.68
        http://www.NeutronOptics.com/hewat
______________________________________________________

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019, 19:08 Michael Taylor, <Michael.Taylor at phoenixwi.com>
wrote:

> Our source does not produce much for gammas, it’s the gammas produced in
> the walls of the shielding that are then filtered by 3” of lead. If you’re
> using a polymer near the detector, that will generate a large number of
> 2.2MeV gammas from the hydrogen that will be background noise on the
> detector itself (using an aSi DDA), so that could be an issue as well.
>
> ——————————————————
> Michael Taylor Ph.D.
> Neutron Radiography Product Manager
> Phoenix LLC
> 2555 Industrial Drive
> Monona, WI 53713
> 608-210-3060 office
> 608-515-3214 mobile
>
> On Dec 16, 2019, at 09:53, Alan Hewat <alan.hewat at neutronoptics.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
> I disagree with Eberhard :-) that my polymer Siemens star should not be
> used with fast neutrons because it is complex and the resulting thermalised
> neutrons are easier to detect. Hot neutron scintillators (PP/ZnS) are not
> very sensitive to low energy neutrons. But ZnS is quite sensitive to x-rays
> and gammas, which are produced in far greater quantities from a DD/DT
> source. As Eberhard showed at Garching, the cross section for gammas and
> fast neutrons is similar for many materials, so unless you are sure to
> reduce the hard x-ray flux well below that of hot neutrons, your heavy
> metal image may have an important gamma component. Gammas, unlike thermal
> neutrons, are difficult to filter out, but a polymer Siemens star will be
> transparent to them. Siemens stars are commonly used for thermal neutrons
> and x-rays, and are not as complicated as real objects.
>
> In fact, I suspect you should try to determine the resolution from your
> real object, which will contain some edges that can be analyzed, but also
> small features that can be used to estimate resolution. And use different
> scintillators to try to separate different beam components.
>
> Alan.
>
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 at 11:51, Lehmann Eberhard (PSI) <
> eberhard.lehmann at psi.ch> wrote:
>
>> Dear all fast neutron imagers,
>>
>>
>>
>> as you might know, the blurring in fast neutron images
>>
>> are caused by at least three parameters:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.       beam collimation
>>
>> 2.       inherent detector blurring, mainly by the scintillator
>>
>> 3.       scattering of the sample, even a test pattern
>>
>>
>>
>> It is difficult to separate them with only one measurement.
>>
>>
>>
>> To exclude the beam effects, studies with test samples close
>>
>> to the detector might help. BUT: when the test pattern has to
>>
>> be thick enough (see below), some beam blurring cannot be
>>
>> avoided.
>>
>>
>>
>> The topic of test samples has been discussed by Michael, Alan
>>
>> and Robert in some details. I completely agree, NOT to have a
>>
>> complicated structure like Siemens stars, but edges of highly
>>
>> attenuating materials.
>>
>>
>>
>> As you can see in the attached slides (from my Garching presentation)
>>
>> there are some high Z materials with values around 0.5 cm-1.
>>
>> Because Os, Ir, Re are exotic and expensive, the best choice would be
>>
>> W. However, a 1 cm layer will attenuate only by 40%, 2 cm by 64%.
>>
>> There are no “black absorbers” like Gd, Cd or B-10 around for thermal
>>
>> neutrons.
>>
>>
>>
>> In conclusion, I agree with Robert to have well manufactured W
>>
>> edges of 1 to 2 cm thickness, well aligned in beam direction
>>
>> (by means of a holder structure).
>>
>> In order to make the resolution more visible, two parallel plates
>>
>> can be used while the gap can be set variable by a mechanical
>>
>> equipment.
>>
>> Such structure can be placed at arbitrary positions in the open beam
>>
>> to analyze the different beam collimation features.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would avoid samples of hydrogenous material because of possible
>>
>> moderation effects which bring neutrons to energies where the can be
>>
>> detected more efficiently.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any better/other idea is welcome for further consideration and testing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Eberhard
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> Paul Scherrer Institut
>> Dr. Eberhard H. Lehmann
>> WBBA/122
>> Forschungsstrasse 111
>> 5232 Villigen PSI
>> Schweiz
>>
>> Telefon: +41 56 310 29 63
>> E-Mail: eberhard.lehmann at psi.ch
>>
>>
>>
>> *Von:* fast-neutrons-bounces at neutronsources.org <
>> fast-neutrons-bounces at neutronsources.org> *Im Auftrag von *Michael Taylor
>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 13. Dezember 2019 20:22
>> *An:* Alan Hewat <alan.hewat at neutronoptics.com>
>> *Cc:* fast-neutrons at neutronsources.org; Elizabeth .Hewat <
>> liz.hewat at gmail.com>
>> *Betreff:* Re: [Fast-Neutrons] Fast-Neutrons Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1
>>
>>
>>
>> Alan, we have a decent plastics printer here at Phoenix but if there’s a
>> reason that the seimans star template would not be good for doing this test
>> I don’t wanna bother making the star. I think this work needs development
>> between many different people to figure out a good solution for everybody
>> to do it the same way between facilities and make it repeatable. I’d be
>> very happy to start that conversation now so that we can get a good
>> solution in place in the future.
>>
>> ——————————————————
>>
>> Michael Taylor Ph.D.
>>
>> Neutron Radiography Product Manager
>>
>> Phoenix LLC
>>
>> 2555 Industrial Drive
>>
>> Monona, WI 53713
>>
>> 608-210-3060 office
>>
>> 608-515-3214 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 13, 2019, at 12:59, Alan Hewat <alan.hewat at neutronoptics.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Yes, Robert makes a lot of good points. I suppose the best you can say
>> for a printed Siemens star is that it can provide a graphic representation
>> of the resolution. The resolution limit that Robert mentions probably can't
>> be obtained anyway with your hot neutron scintillator and collimation. You
>> should be able to find a local company that will print a polymer star for
>> you. You can even buy suitable printers on Amazon for a few hundred
>> dollars. If you can't find a local supplier and really want one, we have
>> such things. If you were local (EU), we could lend you one, but taxes and
>> shipping back and forth to the US make that less attractive than simply
>> buying it for €150. For a photo, see:
>>
>>
>> http://neutronoptics.com/downloads/Manual-NeutronOptics-Hot-Neutron-Camera.pdf
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fneutronoptics.com%2fdownloads%2fManual-NeutronOptics-Hot-Neutron-Camera.pdf&c=E,1,Ojm42aZ5NqLU8ppaotRi6f_VJGljg6LCVEA1oSACfKZzVssKLs7ZAFlJyzaL2dz2QNTrmtDLfYLI_siCgzaUr1UpOGXqM8sLC78VOVA9&typo=1>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards Alan
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>>    Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE
>>                                from my telephone
>> <Alan.Hewat at NeutronOptics.com> +33.476.98.41.68
>>         http://www.NeutronOptics.com/hewat
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.NeutronOptics.com%2fhewat&c=E,1,HyVplmih2rSx7XCaGPqmFyBYlwJanQjd8wmcyx8hDDaHPkXDnkmNwcJtdUFIkEDetaiKV0SMyfnSzx5qhmQTvjE2ns0u3LUGpTVawIh2GKUKtA,,&typo=1>
>> ______________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, 19:11 Michael Taylor, <Michael.Taylor at phoenixwi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for the message, you point out lots of good information in
>> there! I have our machinist working on a couple edges for simple flat and
>> square pieces currently using steel and aluminum to start with. I had hoped
>> a printed Siemens star would come out pretty nicely but perhaps after
>> reading your description it wouldn’t be the best.  Since we don’t have any
>> standard methods to perform this measurement, anything is fair game, except
>> for aligning to the pixel row as you mention, that’s just cheating! I am
>> hopeful we, as a group, can come up with some standard ways to measure the
>> resolution, L/D, etc, just like we have for ASTM thermal neutron imaging.
>> Once I get some shots taken I will send out the data and see what the group
>> thinks is a good way to process it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> ——————————————————
>>
>> Michael Taylor Ph.D.
>>
>> Neutron Radiography Product Manager
>>
>> Phoenix LLC
>>
>> 2555 Industrial Drive
>>
>> Monona, WI 53713
>>
>> 608-210-3060 office
>>
>> 608-515-3214 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 13, 2019, at 06:25, Robert Adams <adams at lke.mavt.ethz.ch> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hello Michael,
>>
>>
>>
>> I can offer my thoughts on this topic, for whatever they are worth:
>>
>>
>>
>> To evaluate the resolution of your radiography system, I don't think a
>> Siemens star makes much sense because it should be reasonably thick (unlike
>> e.g. thermal neutrons or X-rays, where a very thin structure can be used
>> and still obtain a decent attenuation), which means the center of the star
>> will have some rounded edges depending on how it's manufactured... e.g. if
>> you make a Siemens star out of some metal or plastic with waterjet,
>> machining, wire erosion, etc., always the cut-out will have some curvature
>> on the order of 0.5-1 mm at the inner "corner", on the same order as what I
>> guess the system will achieve, so it will not give valuable information.
>> One way around this might be cutting wedges individually, then placing them
>> together, but then alignment is tricky. There might be ways around this to
>> get something satisfactory, but in the end I don't see much value above a
>> good old-fashioned edge measurement. A line pair structure is also a
>> possibility, but like the wedge probably cannot be satisfactorily machined
>> monolithically, and does not add a lot of value to an edge in this case in
>> my opinion.
>>
>>
>>
>> For an edge, it should only be carefully machined to have properly
>> parallel/perpendicular faces, but that's pretty easy. Just make sure the
>> machinist doesn't break or chamfer the corners significantly. Machinable
>> tungsten alloys are readily available and are a good choice for attenuating
>> fast neutrons. Could do alu or steel as well to get some variety. Plastic
>> is also fine but sometimes more annoying to get precise, clean edges and
>> corners compared to metal. I think on the order of 1 cm or so is
>> sufficiently thick to get an easily measured amount of attenuation in the
>> image, without suffering too much from some kind of penumbra blur effect.
>> To be sure that this penumbra is not affecting you, you can do several
>> thicknesses (e.g. 5, 10, 20 mm) and check that they agree. The
>> thickness-direction edge should of course be as parallel as possible with
>> the beam, and it should be placed close to the detector surface if you want
>> to characterize only the detector and minimize effects from the source
>> emitting spot size. You can change the distance to be further away from the
>> detector surface, and then the difference in result will indicate the
>> effect of your source emitting spot or collimation or whatever. More
>> effort, but to check the penumbra effect in more detail you can also put it
>> on a little rotary stage and take a series of measurements from what you
>> consider "edge aligned", and +/- few degrees in small steps, then compare
>> results. If the system is pixelated, the edge should not run palallel to
>> the pixel edge direction, as that can potentially make the measurement
>> suggest a resolution better than it actually is, i.e. put it at 10 degrees
>> from vertical or something like that.
>>
>>
>> For processing you can get each grayscale value as a function of distance
>> from the edge (defined by a manually selected line segment), for all pixels
>> along some length of the edge (e.g. couple cm) and some distance away, then
>> put that all together on one plot. Then make, for example, an error
>> function fit to that data. Then take the derivative of that fit to get a
>> line spread function, and from that the FWHM is an indication of
>> resolution. Or, process the data a bit further and get an MTF. Or, of
>> course, the edge data could be processed many other ways.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want you can to send me image data and I can try apply some
>> scripts I already have to it to give you an example of some of what I'm
>> describing. I expect with some simple edge measurements you can get a
>> robust idea of how your imaging system is performing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert Adams, Dr. sc.
>> IET-LKE ML K19
>>
>> ETH Zürich
>>
>> Sonneggstrasse 3
>>
>> 8092 Zürich, Switzerland
>> Office: +41 (0) 44 632 49 01
>> Mobile: +41 (0) 78 611 39 39
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM <
>> fast-neutrons-request at neutronsources.org> wrote:
>>
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Congrats! Re: First fast neutron      images  at      Phoenix
>>       (Michael Taylor)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 20:49:30 +0000
>> From: Michael Taylor <Michael.Taylor at phoenixwi.com>
>> To: "Lehmann Eberhard (PSI)" <eberhard.lehmann at psi.ch>, Alan
>>         <alan.hewat at gmail.com>, "fast-neutrons at neutronsources.org"
>>         <fast-neutrons at neutronsources.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Fast-Neutrons] Congrats! Re: First fast neutron   images
>>         at      Phoenix
>> Message-ID:
>>         <
>> SN6PR04MB4477696A12CFD23A4EC47D2892550 at SN6PR04MB4477.namprd04.prod.outlook.com
>> >
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Does anyone already have a printed Siemens star they'd be willing to ship
>> to me for testing?  Has anyone come up with another method for measuring
>> resolution for fast neutron imaging?  We are otherwise going to image an
>> edge on different pieces of material: Fe, W, Cu, Al, HDPE to see how they
>> compare.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Michael
>> ________________________________
>> From: fast-neutrons-bounces at neutronsources.org <
>> fast-neutrons-bounces at neutronsources.org> on behalf of Lehmann Eberhard
>> (PSI) <eberhard.lehmann at psi.ch>
>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 4:52 AM
>> To: Alan <alan.hewat at gmail.com>; fast-neutrons at neutronsources.org <
>> fast-neutrons at neutronsources.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Fast-Neutrons] Congrats! Re: First fast neutron images at
>> Phoenix
>>
>>
>> I disagree with Alan about the n-sensitive imaging plates: they are
>>
>> made by Fuji on a commercial base adding Gd to the X-ray sensitive
>>
>> material. Therefore the efficiency is not bad and much better than
>>
>> film methods ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Eberhard
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> Paul Scherrer Institut
>> Dr. Eberhard H. Lehmann
>> WBBA/122
>> Forschungsstrasse 111
>> 5232 Villigen PSI
>> Schweiz
>>
>> Telefon: +41 56 310 29 63
>> E-Mail: eberhard.lehmann at psi.ch
>>
>>
>>
>> Von: fast-neutrons-bounces at neutronsources.org <
>> fast-neutrons-bounces at neutronsources.org> Im Auftrag von Alan
>> Gesendet: Montag, 18. November 2019 10:43
>> An: fast-neutrons at neutronsources.org
>> Betreff: Re: [Fast-Neutrons] Congrats! Re: First fast neutron images at
>> Phoenix
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Michael, Burkhard and Eberhard.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you Michael for these nice images. I too am impressed by the
>> resolution of your thermal images with an L/D of only 35, and agree that it
>> would be good to take thermal images with a camera rather than a neutron
>> image plate. The ordinary Fuji n-plates are just x-ray plates with extra
>> 6LiF and I think only ~10% efficient. ~20 years ago Fuji made special
>> n-plates for ILL that were ~25% efficient but they are no longer available
>> (?). You should be able to reduce the exposure well below 20 minutes with a
>> camera and a good 6LiF/ZnS thermal neutron scintillator even with only
>> 10**4 n.cm-2.s-1. See the images Robert Zboray showed in Sydney from a very
>> low flux Triga reactor, one of which I reproduced in my Munich talk.
>>
>>
>>
>> It would also be good to compare your fast neutron image with a thermal
>> neutron image using the same detector and L/D (with different
>> scintillators). With such small objects, that can be put close to the
>> scintillator, it would be interesting to see if fast neutrons still have
>> some advantage for imaging such defects.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also found Burkard's and Eberhard's comments about the best material
>> and thickness for a fast neutron Siemens star interesting. It would be good
>> to see images with these different resolution objects. I also printed a
>> plastic Siemens star, but 40 mm thick, which I have not yet been able to
>> test. A final trivial point; please don't use exponent e4 instead of 10**4
>> for flux; e has a different meaning for mathematicians.
>>
>> Thanks again for sharing. Alan
>>
>> ______________________________________________________
>>    Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE
>>                                from my telephone
>> <Alan.Hewat at NeutronOptics.com<mailto:Alan.Hewat at NeutronOptics.com>>
>> +33.476.98.41.68
>>         http://www.NeutronOptics.com/hewat
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.NeutronOptics.com%2fhewat&c=E,1,trfayPibiE37z2ho-7D5TpNVA7TTpp4CAOi_NfafXtcFw-fUnzbSjE2ptPnJmF5-qQS9y7dPRHLSRqoAE2rdQFeZnqKjxaNGstiBHAH27FHyUe1fXfiVzZdaICQ,&typo=1>
>> <
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.NeutronOptics.com%2fhewat&c=E,1,nsRpj7Ep0HI2dnJQS9mLWP7NTTRFa_A1rnHdA_hwLcr1LAK7nQ2-Td0N6b_DO9Ja1638KxTpmGVeliGNkSNhx7t1hvZbcROb-wXGKiiSSd4b_OlHxdBS0EA,&typo=1
>> >
>> ______________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 18 Nov 2019, 08:42 Burkhard Schillinger, <
>> Burkhard.Schillinger at frm2.tum.de<mailto:Burkhard.Schillinger at frm2.tum.de>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Michael,
>>
>> congratulations for these nice images!
>> For a fast neutron image, that resolution is pretty good. Probably
>> better than ours - which shows that a high collimation is also
>> important for fast neutrons if you have large samples.
>>
>> I am also surprised again by your thermal image at L/D of only 35 -
>> but that's what you get when you can put the samples up close to the
>> detector.
>>
>>
>> For an edge - about everything scatters fast neutrons, but I have
>> tried with a 10 mm thick polyethylen pattern (Siemens Star) that was
>> 3D printed at our lab. When putting it directly on the detector, it
>> was a good measure to test the screen. The 1.5 mm thickness screen was
>> much better than the 2.4 mm.
>> Not sure what really happens if you take it further away - I assume
>> that 10 mm thickness is a good compromise between attenuation and
>> scattering blur. You might try 10 mm steel as well, but iron is also a
>> diffuse scatterer.
>> A perfect edge does not exist.
>>
>> Good luck with your new 'toys', and Happy Holidays!
>>
>> Burkhard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Good day to all,
>> >
>> > I am happy to announce that we've taken our first fast neutron
>> > images at the Phoenix facility in Wisconsin, USA!  Our source is
>> > operational now with a source strength of approximately 1.5e12 n/s
>> > and an L/D of 450 to achieve a flux at the image plane of
>> > approximately 5e5 n/cm^2-s.  Over the next few weeks, we will be
>> > increasing our beam current and changing our target to a different
>> > material.  We expect to get to full power and have a source strength
>> > of 3e13 n/s and a flux at the image plane of approximately 1e7
>> > n/cm^2-s.
>> >
>> > The image attached was taken using a Varex XRD 1621 digital detector
>> > array and a PP:ZnS(Cu) screen provided by RCTritec.  The
>> > scintillator field of view is 310mm x 310mm, but we plan to use the
>> > full field of view of the detector eventually, which is 430mm x
>> > 430mm.  The image was taken last night and acquired with 15 frames
>> > at 20 seconds each.  The frames were then added and the offsets were
>> > applied for background corrections.  The sample is a simulated M982
>> > military round.  It is 155mm in diameter.  The outside casing is
>> > 1/8" steel and the inside simulant is an HMX equivalent, 6% 6656
>> > binder (simulated with 204 epoxy). Chemically it is similar to HMX
>> > and RDX but with much less nitrogen.  I have outlined some of the
>> > defects of interest that we want to see.
>> >
>> > We would like to measure the resolution of the system next so I
>> > would like to ask if anyone has advice on what material to use as an
>> > edge and how thick it should be?  We do not yet have any kind of
>> > standard measurement technique for this that I'm aware of, so I
>> > would like to know what others are doing.
>> >
>> > I've also attached a new image we acquired using thermal neutrons of
>> > several different military grade .50 caliber ammunition.  We took an
>> > X-ray image for comparison and that is shown as well.  The X-ray was
>> > done at 350kV but I don't recall the current.  The neutron image was
>> > acquired using our thermal neutron generator with heavy water
>> > moderator, the L/D was 35 and the flux was approximately 1e4
>> > n/cm^2-s.  The exposure time on a neutron sensitive image plate was
>> > 20 minutes.
>> >
>> > I hope everyone is well, it was great to meet so many of you in
>> > Garching last month and I wish you all happy holidays as they
>> > approach us soon.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Michael
>> >
>> > Michael Taylor Ph.D.
>> > Neutron Radiography Product Manager
>> > Phoenix LLC
>> > 2555 Industrial Drive
>> > Madison, WI 53717
>> > 608-515-3214
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Burkhard Schillinger
>> Technische Universit?t M?nchen - FRM II
>> Heinz Maier-Leibnitz Zentrum
>> Lichtenbergstr.1
>> D-85748 Garching
>> Germany
>> Tel. +49 89 289-12185
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> End of Fast-Neutrons Digest, Vol 6, Issue 1
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>
> --
> ______________________________________________
> *   Dr Alan Hewat, NeutronOptics, Grenoble, FRANCE *
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